Home Equity, VA Entitlement and Down Payment Help: Christopher Armantrout on WSGI’s One Street Over

01:13 LaVern Vivio: This is 1100 WSGI, I'm U-Turn LaVern, and this is One Street Over. I'm excited, I'm ready to get back at it. We're back from fall break today, so everybody get back to school. This is the beginning of the second quarter; I can't believe we're a quarter of the way through. All my seniors out there, it's going fast, you better get on it.

02:51 LaVern Vivio: I'm so excited to have Chris Armantrout in today. He's one of our full-time sponsors and we just love that so much. It's so funny: when you came in with Scott from the Veteran Service Office, and it was "Valor Mortgage," I'm like, oh, this is all military. And very quickly I saw where Valor Mortgage came from, because y'all do it all. But I love the name, because I'm very military-minded. I've got a veteran, my kiddo, and he takes advantage of all that VA loan stuff. He's got two houses, and rents, and there are some great things there, some solid benefits.

03:28 Christopher Armantrout: Yeah, there are.

03:29 LaVern Vivio: So when you mentioned doing this, I was like, absolutely, this is such a great fit, because we have Barry and Rebecca on, and that's kind of our theme here with One Street Over. It's something we all have to pay attention to, and it should be a goal for everyone, because home ownership, property ownership — you're not wasting your money on rent. So it's just such a great fit. Welcome, welcome.

03:54 Christopher Armantrout: Thank you, thank you.

03:56 LaVern Vivio: Tell us where Valor came from, the name Valor Mortgage. You've told me, but tell them.

04:00 Christopher Armantrout: All right. Back in 2018, Hurricane Michael hit Panama City, Florida, and a buddy of mine called me up and said, "Hey, I need you to lead a couple of guys down to Florida and help out with the disaster response." So I did. I didn't know what I was doing, but — I mean, it's about an hour-long story, and it's on my website if you want to check it out; I'm not going to start it here — it just ended up with the idea that a small group of guys can do a powerful thing with God.

04:31 LaVern Vivio: Oh, yeah.

04:31 Christopher Armantrout: If you look in Scripture, there are many points where it's David's mighty men of valor, or Gideon's mighty men of valor. My company's not huge. I've got an awesome support team behind me. But it's the concept of doing a lot with the little you have and making the impact from that. So when I was looking for a word, I was like, okay, something brave, something honest. I found "valor," and later I looked it up and I'm like, oh, it's throughout Scripture. So I'm all for it — this is what we're doing, this is what we're rolling with. That's the short story, and you can see the entirety of it at valor.mortgage.

05:18 LaVern Vivio: Valor dot mortgage — see, I have to look at it. I'm sitting here looking at my copy: it's valor.mortgage. I apologize.

05:24 Christopher Armantrout: No, you're good, you're good.

05:29 LaVern Vivio: By now I should have that dot in there. But nonetheless, whenever we first started talking I said, man, this would be awesome, and I appreciate you coming along and being a part of this. And two, because I have so many questions myself.

05:48 Christopher Armantrout: All right.

05:49 LaVern Vivio: We talk about it when we do the ad every day, and this is something I really harp on, because I have an old mortgage. It's low — you know, it's like in the threes.¹

06:01 Christopher Armantrout: Yeah, I wouldn't touch it.

06:02 LaVern Vivio: Right, we're not going to touch that. Got a lot of equity, though. So I'm doing some home improvements, and I don't want to spend every penny I have in savings to do them, but it's more expensive than I thought it was going to be. We're doing as much as we can, and I'm sitting there going, I would like to do that, but I really don't want to spend that money right now. But then maybe I do need to see about getting some equity out so I can make these improvements, because my husband and I are in our 60s, we want to enjoy this home, and we want to get this work done before we get to a place where — I can remember my mother wanting to make improvements on the farmhouse my dad grew up in, and as she got older she just got to a place — she's passed now — where she said, "You're not tearing my house up. I'm not going to deal with it. This is where I live, I'm good, leave it alone."

06:59 Christopher Armantrout: Yeah.

07:00 LaVern Vivio: So if we're wanting to do — I'm wanting to do it, let me clarify. My husband's like, "Leave it alone."

07:06 Christopher Armantrout: You've been talking to my wife.

07:08 LaVern Vivio: So I really want to do a master bedroom in the lower part of our house, where my traffic studio used to be. It's just wasted space, and there's so much better use for it. I'm like, we need to just go ahead and get this done. So what are my options if I don't want to spend every penny I have set aside? Or should I just go ahead and use the cash I have on hand?

07:37 Christopher Armantrout: I'll share what decision I'd make on that. I guess you could say there are four different ways you could go. One, you could spend all your money — which is entirely possible if somebody's very debt-averse, or very debt-aware, if you will. Dave Ramsey kind of thing.

07:51 LaVern Vivio: Yeah.

07:52 Christopher Armantrout: Like, nope, debt's evil. And if you want to do debt-free living, I do have a free magazine if you'd like to give us a call.

08:00 LaVern Vivio: There you go. Okay, cool.

08:01 Christopher Armantrout: The second thing is what's called a HELOC, a home equity line of credit. A home equity line of credit allows you to use your house's equity very much like a giant credit card. But credit cards have variable rates, so as banks' rates adjust, that rate is going to adjust. Not always the most exciting. I put a HELOC against my property back when rates were closer to four percent, and I was like, well, this is great, I love this. But between, I guess, the summer and winter of that year, that HELOC rate went from four percent to eight percent.² So when you're anticipating, "I have the ability to pay for this," but then the market shifts like it has over this last year, you're paying more than what you planned for. If you have a limited or a set amount of money coming in every month, then that's eating into your food budget, or your college budget. So that may not always be the ideal option.

09:16 Christopher Armantrout: My office doesn't do HELOCs. However, there are multiple local banks I've talked with that have had excellent introductory rates in the fives and the sixes, where prime is — I think prime is at seven, seven and a quarter.³ So a HELOC is an option.

09:37 Christopher Armantrout: Another option, if you're nervous and you don't want that interest rate fluctuating on you: some banks have what's called a home equity loan. This is going to be a fixed payment, and it sits in second position, so you still keep your three percent, just like with the HELOC. But it allows you to say, "I'm going to pull out equity, my payment's going to be fixed, and I know exactly how much I'm going to borrow." You don't get the flexibility you do with the HELOC. With the HELOC you have the flexibility of, okay, I'm going to borrow a little bit, pay it back, borrow a little bit more, pay it back. It's a line of credit. With a home equity loan you're taking it all out at once, but you know what your payment is, and your rate may be a little bit higher because it's not flexible.

10:40 Christopher Armantrout: And then the fourth option, if you will, is something I can help with. In your particular scenario, where you've got a three percent interest rate, it may not be the best fit.

10:51 LaVern Vivio: Point four, I think, is something like that.

10:53 Christopher Armantrout: Which technically you're making money off of — but we're not going to go down that road. With a cash-out refinance, you're essentially saying, "I'm going to pay off my mortgage and get a brand-new mortgage put onto my property," and you're allowing yourself to take the equity from your house. A lot of times with the HELOC and the home equity loan, your closing expense isn't going to be as much. Banks will typically cover your appraisal and your title expense, because they're anticipating you're going to keep it for at least two years, so they'll make the interest off of that. When you do a cash-out refinance or a rate-and-term refinance, you're going to pay origination fees, title expense and an appraisal. You can roll that into the loan, but you're starting to get to five, six, seven thousand dollars in cost to go that route.⁴

12:00 LaVern Vivio: Oh, yeah.

12:01 Christopher Armantrout: So that's not the route for everyone, and it's hard for me to stomach when someone's got 3.4 percent¹ and they're like, "Hey, I want to borrow money and pay this debt off." I think it boils down to where your stomach is when it comes to your level of risk. One of the big things I like about my job is that no call is going to be the same. Somebody's going to call my office, and Bob's scenario is going to be entirely different than Mary's. So for me, it's a brand-new puzzle. I get to start figuring out where this fits and where it doesn't. And if it doesn't fit, I want a network within the community to be able to say, "I'm not the best fit for you; you need to go talk to Joe Schmo over here, or this bank."

12:56 Christopher Armantrout: For example, I assume you're not looking to pull out fifty thousand or a hundred thousand dollars. So if you call me and say, "I want to do X product, I want to do X fix," well, it doesn't make sense to pay thousands of dollars to refinance your house to do a little maintenance. We'll call that stupid financing. So a home equity line of credit with your local bank that you already have a relationship with, or a community credit union, can serve that niche — that isn't where I serve, per se. But if you're like, "I've got to pay for college, my car is in the shop, and I've got forty thousand dollars of credit card bills" — well, credit card bills, that's twenty-four to thirty-six percent interest.⁵ If you can restructure your debt so your cash flow is working in your favor and you're reducing the interest you're paying out every month, there could be a logical financial path to make that happen.

14:13 Christopher Armantrout: So it depends — and I use this phrase a lot. Those who have worked for me in the past are like, "Chris, 'it depends' is not a fair answer." It's not a fair answer, it's just honest.

14:24 LaVern Vivio: Yeah, and that's the answer we need. We need somebody who's going to be straight with us and tell us the honest answer, and not just blow smoke.

14:35 Christopher Armantrout: Right. Everybody likes to get paid, but everybody also likes a returning client, even if it's not a fit initially. I shouldn't be aiming for "I need this sale." I should be aiming for "I need to take care of this client" — and then, "Hey, do you know someone who could use a house, or a debt restructure?" That way it's a broader picture, if you will.

14:58 Christopher Armantrout: And with that, it's not just veterans, like you shared. I've got a client right now who wants to build a house in East Tennessee. The husband has had an injury, and his company hasn't told him, "This is how we're going to pay you moving forward," or "We're going to allow you to come back to work." So he's in this limbo spot, which means he doesn't have a documented monthly income.

15:37 LaVern Vivio: Okay.

15:37 Christopher Armantrout: But he's sitting on a very large sum of cash and a very large sum of retirement. So the family came to me and said, "We want to use something called asset depletion." Asset depletion is a unique, oddball product you may not be able to get at your local bank. It says: I'm going to take your liquid assets, and there's a formula I can use to say that, technically, you're making X amount of money every month based off that large sum. Then I can add your Social Security and the pension you're already receiving, and now you have a monthly income. It's a little bit of creative financing,⁶ but they want to build — so where the bank said, "We don't like your financial picture," we have a system and we can work for you.

16:37 Christopher Armantrout: Another client — or I talked to the realtor, I guess I'd say, yesterday — they're self-employed. That makes your financing prospectus a little bit hairy. Well, if I can show you've been receiving income from this source for the last 12 months, I can start calculating roughly how much you brought in over those 12 months. Typically those programs want to see a little more investment up front, probably closer to 20 percent, 15 percent,⁶ but it allows someone who's self-employed, who has written off their income on their taxes, to potentially purchase a home. I could keep going down scenario after scenario. That's the truth of it: it's all different, and it depends.

17:28 LaVern Vivio: Very much so. You've definitely answered my question, because I'm kind of like my husband: I just want to wait and do it a little bit at a time, have a benchmark where, when we've saved this much, then we'll do something else, rather than pulling money out. That makes more sense. But we get all kinds of phone calls and junk mail that say you can pull equity out without touching your existing mortgage. How does that work, and do y'all do those?

18:09 Christopher Armantrout: That would fall back to the home equity line of credit or the home equity loan. So that would be something I'd go to the bank with. I probably have products to do it, but if I want my product to be something that's advantageous, and I know something's better somewhere else, I'd rather they go that route, because you're going to save more money that way. So, a local bank — if you want, I can make a recommendation.

18:44 LaVern Vivio: We have a great credit union. We've been there a long time, and we've done some small things through them. And that's so much better than answering any of these — I call them big-box-store mortgages. Our mortgage is old, and it's been bought and sold so many times. All of a sudden I'll get this thing saying, "This is your mortgage holder," and then I can't even get into it.

19:13 Christopher Armantrout: Right. It takes a little bit to change everything.

19:18 LaVern Vivio: Right. So call him instead. What are the interest rates right now? If you've got really good credit and you're a first-time buyer, what are you looking at? Because I know it's going to depend — maybe I'm in my 60s and I've got great credit, so if I'm going to move, what kind of interest rate could I expect? Two incomes.

19:43 Christopher Armantrout: Income, credit, down payment — they all play a factor in where you're at. For a clean conventional product, you're probably looking in the low sevens.⁷ Things have crept up about a percent this year, which is exciting. But other products, like VA — typically decent credit, no down payment — you're probably going to be high sixes, low sevens.⁷ Every product is going to have slightly different criteria and a different way of structuring the deal. For example, where a conventional loan may be in the low sevens, a bank statement loan may be in the low eights,⁷ because it's a different breed of product. They're going to get you one way or another, sadly: if you're not paying taxes on that income, they're going to get you paying interest. So it depends on what your goal is, what you're trying to accomplish, and how you're trying to get there. That's my job: are we doing this with a Ferrari or with a jalopy? We're going to make it happen; we just have to figure out how to get there.

21:00 LaVern Vivio: You said several things that made me go, oh, I want to know more about that. I want to back up a little to where you said that in a situation where I have a mortgage in the threes, I'm making money. What do you mean by that? Because that part — man, I'm like, am I making money? How does that work?

21:21 Christopher Armantrout: Well, okay. I don't know what the technical level of inflation is right now. But I have a truck, and I put diesel in it every two weeks — I don't drive it very often — and that contributes to inflation and makes everything else more expensive. Inflation and interest are enemies of each other. As inflation increases, investors still want to get paid, but they don't want to get paid what they were getting paid, because the cost of capital has increased. So if you took out a mortgage five or ten years ago, whenever it was, when rates were at three percent —

22:12 LaVern Vivio: Remember? Yeah, it was a few days ago. I've slept since then; it's been a minute.

22:16 Christopher Armantrout: — then as inflation has increased, you're technically paying less on your mortgage than what inflation is. When inflation creeps above that, technically, on paper, you're making money on the difference.⁸ Like I said, I haven't dug into what inflation is right now — they released some core figures, I think, last week or two weeks ago. So it depends on how nerdy-mortgage you want to get.

22:43 LaVern Vivio: My kids would go there with me. My kids are all math people, and they start talking — I was with two of my boys yesterday, and sometimes they start talking and my eyes just glaze over. So I love talking to folks like you, where I get a little better understanding and don't feel so left out of the conversation.

23:07 Christopher Armantrout: That's all right.

23:08 LaVern Vivio: But my kid — the veteran — he is really into all this. They own two homes right now, and he's the one who'd be most likely to move back here. The rest of them, I don't imagine they'll ever come back to Robertson County, but that one, maybe. They're not ready to move now, but he said something about, "What if we buy a property that backs up to you?" Because our problem is: we have 43 acres just up the street here, and he loves the property, but he doesn't want to build right next to us, which is the obvious place to build. He wants to build up on the hill, away from us, but we don't have any road frontage up there, so there's no access. So he said, "What if I bought a house that backs up to you, if one goes for sale? I could rent it." Or, he goes, "I could build a house on you guys' land and rent it until —" and I'm like, you're not going to build something on my property and then rent it; we're not doing that. But I said if you buy a house that backs up to us and want to rent it for a while — he likes the idea of having several properties and having some renters. So, being that he's a veteran, can he continue to go to the well? Are there limits on the VA loans you can get? Can he keep getting new loans and better interest rates? Because my understanding was a VA loan is like, okay, you get a couple of hits on this and that's it. How does that work?

24:47 Christopher Armantrout: There's a level of entitlement. When someone comes to me, the main document I ask for — it'll vary a little — is something called a DD-214. The DD-214 allows me to go to the VA and request their Certificate of Eligibility. That gives me numbers that say Joe has taken out a loan before, or he's never touched it. If he hasn't currently tapped into any of his entitlement, then — what it used to be is the county loan limit would cap you. But now, if you don't have any debt using your entitlement, then as long as my automated underwriter, the software I use, says the risk level for this client is acceptable — you know, four million dollars.⁹

25:45 LaVern Vivio: Wow.

25:46 Christopher Armantrout: But flip that. Let's say Joe's bought a house and he's like, "I need to move across the state, I'm being transferred." He used his entitlement on that first house, so he has — I guess you'd call it bonus entitlement. There's extra entitlement he didn't use on that first run. So if he's buying another house, as long as there's enough entitlement in the calculation, he gets to keep that first house and use the rest to buy the second house. But it has to be his primary residence. It's not like he can say, "I want to use my entitlement to buy investment property." It doesn't work that way; it has to be your primary.⁹ After you commit to living in that house for so long, then moving to your next house, you still have a loan on the first, but you're using your extra to buy the next one. If that one gets paid off — say you sell it and you're moving to another location again — it goes back to: I've restored my entitlement, so I can go higher than the county loan limits to purchase.

26:48 LaVern Vivio: Okay. So it depends — I'm sure he understands all of this, but I find it fascinating, because when we sit down and talk to him, he throws all this stuff out and it makes my head spin a little, so I want a better understanding, especially if they're going to move up here eventually. The reason they haven't already looked into moving up here is because they have such a great relationship with their local church; they're just so much a part of their church, and I think that's so beautiful. I don't want to pull them away from their church family to come up here and take care of Mom and Dad. But anyway, there was another question.

27:28 LaVern Vivio: When Barry and Rebecca were in here — we're talking with Chris Armantrout, he is with Valor Mortgage, and if you want to connect with him, you can go to valor.mortgage, or you can call them at 615-671-9178, 615-671-9178, to get pre-approved. Because when it matters most, you deserve a lender you can trust.¹⁰ Buy with confidence, buy with Valor. Should I do the numbers?

27:52 Christopher Armantrout: Sure.

27:53 LaVern Vivio: Valor Mortgage, NMLS number 1210804, [powered by] Encore Lending Group, NMLS 1249911, Equal Housing Lender.¹¹ Subject to credit approval. Rates and terms subject to change without notice. Not a commitment to lend. Let them know U-Turn sent you, because with them you're a neighbor, not a number. Excellent, so we got that in.

28:14 LaVern Vivio: I want to know a little more: Barry and Rebecca mentioned there was a house in Portland they had available, and they said there were some rural loan options. I forget what they called it — I don't think it was FHA, they said no. What are the options when it comes to rural property?

28:33 Christopher Armantrout: Think of rural as being outside major city limits. USDA sets a limit: if so many people live in a certain town, then every couple of years they'll update their map and say if you live outside this section, you can buy using a Rural Development loan. Rural Development, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, basically allows a lending program to buy a house with 100 percent financing.¹² You could use that, or there's a separate program Tennessee does called THDA that also allows for 100 percent financing.¹³ One of them can be structured so that you essentially have two house payments — with THDA you may have two house payments, you may not, or you may use a down payment with part of it.

29:23 Christopher Armantrout: USDA specifically is 100 percent financing, and typically the interest rate is slightly cheaper than the rest of the products in the market.¹² You will pay mortgage insurance on that loan for the duration of the loan, but it's usually significantly cheaper than the mortgage insurance on the rest of the products.¹² The hardship with it — it can work, and it works well when it does work, but sometimes the window to qualify is a little narrower than it may be for other products. So typically, when someone comes into my office and says, "I don't have a down payment," that's where I start. That's kind of the number-one go-to.

30:03 Christopher Armantrout: With USDA, there are qualifiers that disqualify people, if you will. America — we like debt. We're addicted to debt.

30:17 LaVern Vivio: Yeah, we are.

30:18 Christopher Armantrout: So someone who has high debt may have the income, but they have the debt that goes with it. And there's a window for the debt-to-income ratio — how much money you bring in versus how much is going out every month. With interest rates creeping higher, that makes your mortgage payment bigger, which means your total debt is higher. Typically, you're looking at about a 41 to 45 percent window¹⁴ — that's getting into the weeds — versus FHA. The reason people tend to lean toward an FHA product when they're looking to purchase is that the ratio can go up to 55,¹⁴ so you have a lot more flexibility. With USDA there's also an income limit: your household income can only be so much, and it depends on the county.¹²

31:18 LaVern Vivio: Nashville metro — everything depends.

31:19 Christopher Armantrout: Yeah, there are so many variables. Somebody calls my office and they're just like, "So what's rates?" And even when you asked that, I'm like, yeah — well, what am I going to get? And even with that: I work as a lender, but I also work as a broker.¹⁰ So you could come in and say, "What's the rate for this?" And I'm like, once I get your program and figure out what you're doing — well, this investor over here may be charging you seven and a half percent, but this one over here may be charging you six point seven five percent.⁷ Which one do you want? I know you want the six point seven five for sure. So it depends.

32:00 Christopher Armantrout: USDA is an excellent product. It's excellent for getting your foot in the door. It's just that the qualification window — as homes become more expensive, interest rates increase and our appetite for debt increases — becomes more and more narrow. It's not that it can't be done. It's my first go-to, because I think it's a good product; it just becomes harder, and because it becomes harder, there may be another product that makes the process happen when that one may not. So, USDA: it's a great product.

32:45 LaVern Vivio: And Barry and his wife are on cue, saying Cross Plains is excellent — well, this was a Portland property, still a good spot — that we were talking about, and it was a great house. It was priced at something like $260,000, I'll have to look it up. You don't find homes priced like that anymore. It had just been renovated.

33:10 Christopher Armantrout: You know, $300,000 is modest. It's kind of the starting point.

33:14 LaVern Vivio: Yeah, I got it — which blows my mind. I haven't shopped for property in a long time, but it blows my mind. One of the questions I had — you know how something will pop in your head — you talk about down payments. I want home ownership possible for everybody, like you say in the ad. Because you're just wasting your money when you're paying rent; you're paying somebody else's mortgage.

33:42 Christopher Armantrout: You really are.

33:43 LaVern Vivio: My kid that's got a rental property — that's what they're doing, they're paying the mortgage on it. It is working for them, but you don't want to see people you love doing that; you want to see them have an investment. Is there an avenue where somebody could actually borrow money for a down payment? Because I can't imagine being a young person, young married, young family, and trying to come up with twenty thousand dollars for a down payment. That's what you're talking about a lot of the time, isn't it? If you're looking at a $300,000-plus home and you have to come up with a certain percentage, that can get big quick.

34:24 Christopher Armantrout: Right. So, USDA is an excellent option; it's a hundred percent. And VA — of all the loan programs, VA is probably the crème de la crème product. A hundred percent.⁹

34:37 LaVern Vivio: Join the Army! Because I tell a lot of kids — my son who served and is now honorably discharged, he did his tour, he went to Afghanistan, did the whole thing — he says it's the best decision he ever made, because of the financial benefits on the back side. He says there are all kinds of benefits. He says they didn't take real good care of them while they were in there, but he served, and now they're taking care of him — just like you said, with Scott coming in here through our wonderful VSO programs and being able to point to him, and with the VA loans. And your education — he got two degrees, paid for. It's incredible. So he says if you think you might want to serve, you really need to look into it. But nonetheless — I've got Lee Marie standing out here getting ready to come in, so we probably need to wrap it up.

35:30 Christopher Armantrout: Fair enough. There are two things I could look at. One: as long as you're related to someone, they can gift you a down payment.¹⁵ So if you've got that rich uncle, start pulling on his coat and saying, "Hey, send it to me." But everything has to be documented; that's the key. If someone's just like, "Here's twenty thousand dollars I just deposited," we're going to wait a month or two and make sure that's there.

35:54 Christopher Armantrout: The second portion: there are two programs off the top of my head. One is called THDA — the Tennessee Housing Development Agency; I always get the acronym mixed up. They allow for, one, using their program with a down payment you bring. Two — I believe it depends on the loan size — they'll give you a ten-thousand-dollar second mortgage, and that second mortgage is either left on the house until you sell, with no payment, so it's basically like a grant, if you will; or you can do a second mortgage with a payment. There are different structures for how this plays out, so it's either ten thousand or fifteen thousand.¹³ And with that — I've got a police officer I'm working with right now — they get an extra half-percent discount on rate¹³ for being a police officer, being a teacher. There are some solid programs out there for that.

36:55 LaVern Vivio: Yeah.

36:56 Christopher Armantrout: The second option is something called The Housing Fund.¹⁶ These two programs are going to be income-based, based on how many people are in the house; there are a lot of qualifiers, but it fits most people. The Housing Fund requires you to put up one percent of your own money — so on a three-hundred-thousand-dollar house, a three-thousand-dollar payment. But that one percent: you have to pay for an appraisal, so there's five or six hundred bucks right there. Your home inspection could count toward that one percent, so there's another five or six hundred bucks you're going to pay up front already. Your earnest money — you're going to pay five hundred to a thousand dollars in earnest money.¹⁷ So you're halfway there. So there are programs for down payment assistance. They exist. Again, everything depends.

37:58 LaVern Vivio: You've got to call them. That's the bottom line.

38:00 Christopher Armantrout: Conversations are free.

38:02 LaVern Vivio: There you go. Educational moments.

38:03 Christopher Armantrout: I'll spend an hour talking to somebody just to be able to say, does this work, does this apply? Because if you don't know what you don't know, then you're not going to buy. But if you want to call, have a conversation, build a plan — it may not be six months, it may be two years, it may be five years — let's build a plan. Let's figure this out.

38:26 LaVern Vivio: For sure. I love it, it's so good. Thank you for coming in here and talking to us. The numbers again: 615-671-9178, 615-671-9178, or valor.mortgage. Get pre-approved today, talk to Chris Armantrout. You've got other experienced loan officers working with you?

38:44 Christopher Armantrout: I've got a handful.

38:45 LaVern Vivio: You've got a handful, and you've got an office downtown if they need to meet downtown, or you can come to them, I'm assuming.

38:49 Christopher Armantrout: Yep, I'd be more than happy to. The office is between the movie theater and the corner, by Brown & Associates.

38:56 LaVern Vivio: Very good. Anything we're missing?

38:59 Christopher Armantrout: Just come see me. Let's have a conversation.

39:01 LaVern Vivio: I love it, and I love the spiritual tie-in to the name, and the beauty of that. So you know he's your brother — brother in Jesus. Thank you, Chris, it's so good to see you.

39:13 Christopher Armantrout: Appreciate you. Yes, ma'am.

39:15 LaVern Vivio: We'll get you back in here in a couple of weeks, maybe, and have another conversation. And I'll take a look at this, too. I love this — is this something you've done through your church?

39:25 Christopher Armantrout: It is through my church, but it's basically some quick notes on debt-free living.

39:33 LaVern Vivio: I love it. Very good. So, good deal, guys. Thank you, Chris, we'll see you later. Remember, get a hold of them at Valor Mortgage today. One more time: you can call them at 615-671-9178, 615-671-9178, or go to valor.mortgage. Get pre-approved today, because when it matters most, you deserve a lender you can trust.¹⁰ Buy with confidence, buy with Valor, where they treat you as a neighbor, not a number. Valor Mortgage, NMLS 1210804, [powered by] Encore Lending Group, NMLS 1249911, Equal Housing Lender.¹¹ Subject to credit approval. Rates and terms subject to change without notice. Not a commitment to lend. Let them know U-Turn sent ya.